To Fly or Not to Fly

[belenny]

"In the meantime, we can at least take heart in knowing, that even for those like myself who once depended on a wing clip for safety reasons, may rest assured those wings will eventually grow back.............."

This is an impotant point
That wings will grow back, but ¿will be your parrot fitness enough then?
Lack of exercise is only one of the problems about clipping wings, in Spain it´s recomended to do exercise with him everyday while he´s clipped, specially for the wings but also for the beak and the keel (breakaches are really common in clipped parrots).
It´s difficult for me to explain how that exercises are in English, but I´d like to know if in the case of lovebirds you take care of this, too.
In this way, when the parrot recover his wings he could use them without problems.

"Most of our birds are breeder bought, rehomed or bred , we dont snatch them from the wild the majority of our birds havent lost anything they gained a flock who loves and spoils them, they have no natural predators they have no worry of not being able to eat or drink they are safe happy and spoiled, Lovebirds dont last 15 years in the wild they are lucky to live past thier 4th birthday, birds are prey animals and as such i feel we have given them an awsome life, no guilt here! "

Of course, mine are bred in captivity too, but I wanted to say that they didn´t choose to come and I think we should respect them as possible. If you want a pet to run on the floor you have a lot of different options and you can get them respecting them (dogs, cats, ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs, ...). To convert a bird in which he´s not by whim is unethical in my opinion... I only understand clipping when it was necessary for his security because of something unexpected.

HaleBoppPeachyluv, I know how clipping wings is done, but my opinion is the same. Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.
Lovies who escaped with their wings could go back home sooner or later (I could show a lot of links with the stories if you like it).
Some of them simply came the call of their owner (that´s because I train my lovebirds...), some others flew up a house with another lovebirds and then were returned for the person who lived in that home, some others went to a pedestrian shoulder and were returned too, ... Flying is their only defense.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

[Dancelady]

"This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that."

To Belenny, this is not for owner's comfort -- it is to keep the lovies safe and happy. Have gotten new lovies over a year ago, which were not tame at all, and when let out would fly to the highest point in the room well over my head and normal ladders. Because they weren't tame, I could not do anything to make them come home. Eventually after they were caught I had the wings clipped a little by a vet, not enough to stop them from flying to their heart's content, but enough to make them fly only straight and not climb. This was important to the lovies themselves, besides to my own self, because they could enjoy themselves but still not get into trouble high up. Saying "you don't respect that" means you aren't open to any ideas, regardless, and I worry about your fids if they ever accidentally get out at a bad time. People all have kids, friends, and others who won't remember to close doors, turn off fans, and open windows with screens, that a good lovie can destruct quickly. Be more mindful about what others need, and don't fault them for doing what they need to do. HaleBopp is right about the right clipping -- doesn't hurt the birds, doesn't stop them from flying, and doesn't mess with them mentally. My birds and all their grown chicks now are very happy, fly every day, and don't feel like prisoners because they are trapped on the floor. Your idea of clipping is wrong -- perhaps the people near you don't know how to clip them, and you are blaming the problem on them, rather than on the actual clipping process. Be more understanding....

[belenny]

"To Belenny, this is not for owner's comfort -- it is to keep the lovies safe and happy."

Well, that´s your opinion. My lovebirds had never been clipped and they are safe and happy

I repeat: I respect clipping a parrot because of an unexpected problem (for example I know a girl who had to share an apartment for some months and her parrot was clipped until she could go back home), but to buy a parrot with the idea of keeping him clipped during all his life is a selfish act IN MY OPINION (I think it would be better to buy a "non-flying" pet in that case).
You can do whatever you want, I only say what I think and I´m sure I´m not wrong about what clipping wings is.

Greetings!

[michael]

Most of our birds are breeder bought, rehomed or bred , we dont snatch them from the wild the majority of our birds havent lost anything they gained a flock who loves and spoils them, they have no natural predators they have no worry of not being able to eat or drink they are safe happy and spoiled, Lovebirds dont last 15 years in the wild they are lucky to live past thier 4th birthday, birds are prey animals and as such i feel we have given them an awsome life, no guilt here!

.............That wings will grow back, but ¿will be your parrot fitness enough then?
Lack of exercise is only one of the problems about clipping wings, in Spain it´s recomended to do exercise with him everyday while he´s clipped, specially for the wings but also for the beak and the keel (breakaches are really common in clipped parrots).
It´s difficult for me to explain how that exercises are in English, but I´d like to know if in the case of lovebirds you take care of this, too.
In this way, when the parrot recover his wings he could use them without problems.

............Of course, mine are bred in captivity too, but I wanted to say that they didn´t choose to come and I think we should respect them as possible. If you want a pet to run on the floor you have a lot of different options and you can get them respecting them (dogs, cats, ferrets, rabbits, guinea pigs, ...). To convert a bird in which he´s not by whim is unethical in my opinion... I only understand clipping when it was necessary for his security because of something unexpected.

...........Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.
Lovies who escaped with their wings could go back home sooner or later (I could show a lot of links with the stories if you like it).
Some of them simply came the call of their owner (that´s because I train my lovebirds...), some others flew up a house with another lovebirds and then were returned for the person who lived in that home, some others went to a pedestrian shoulder and were returned too, ... Flying is their only defense.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

Belenny. Although I do agree with most your views, I think its important to consider each and every perspective here. ... Afterall, Jeremiah (Bubbleking) as well as the others have offered up some interesting facts. One of them being, that (clipped or not), if provided the proper love and care, companion birds can live long and happy life. ... We must also not forget, that because companion birds are just as much a part our ever growing society as those which are domestic, improving upon their care should not be short changed by implicating certain ethics. That is, sometimes as a result of this oversight, we tend to go our separate ways. This in my view, accomplishes nothing with regards to all of our goals.

As mentioned earlier, clipping a parrots wings under certain circumstances can provide a reasonable amount of safety. If done correctly so as to limit flight (and not eliminate it), this is a far better option than confinement or escape. ... Keep in mind here too, that because most parrots will enter into their new home without so much as even formal training, scared and confused they may easily take flight risking serious injury. To have one escape due to lack of preparedness would only add insult to injury. As a note; We always recommend keeping parrots and other pets apart at all times. Nothing worse than keeping a cat and a bird in the same room .

Lets not forget, that while some parrots can be trained (even by a 10 year old) to return to their rightful owner, there are many who simply cannot be trained to do anything at all. While this in itself is no reason to clip a parrots wings, it exemplifies the fact that no two parrots or their owners are alike. Therefore, we must base the decision to clip not so much on our beliefs, but how well it might apply in each individual case.

For example, another good reason to clip a parrots wings may be this; ... Say we've taken in a parrot who's behavior is such that it remains in a state of defensiveness and/or aggression. Not exactly a comfortable life, would you not agree? ... So now if we trim a few flights, and this in turn leads to a more comfortable state of emotional wellbeing, would this not be a good thing? ... As you can begin to see, there may be other viable reasons used in determining whether or not to clip a birds wings. ... Once again, clipping should not only be taken seriously, but also be well planned, that way it benefits the parrots lifestyle as a whole.

Certainly, your question in regards to how well a parrot might recover from a clip is an important one. With exception to clipping a birds wings at "too young an age", personally, I don't know of any who have suffered a consequence from having their wings clipped, even when done on a consecutive basis. But as you say, exercise (especially flight) is indeed an important factor in keeping our birds healthy. .... Alternatively, should someone choose to clip, it would make little sense to not follow through with plenty of interaction time. Although i'm unsure as to what type of regimine those in Spain use to help keep their parrots fit and trim, over here we like to provide as much out of cage time as possible, plenty of personal interaction, large cages, a multitude of toys (both natural and manmade), and a safe environment where they can enjoy access to as many devices their little hearts may so desire. ........ By the way, thankfully, breakaches are not too common among parrots here in the U.S. ... For some of us fidparents though, that may be a different story

[belenny]

It´s difficult for me to explain what I think in English, I hope you don´t misinterpret the words because I´m using a translator and in spanish I wouldn´t sound so sharp

I´ve talked about this so many times on spanish forums that I know perfectly what you want to say, but I can´t be agree with the most of things.

"One of them being, that (clipped or not), if provided the proper love and care, companion birds can live long and happy life."

I agree with that, but I think you´ll agree with me about the posibilities on each case. Interaction with the envirnoment is not the same for a clipped parrot.
My lovebirds could go whatever they want on each room, I remove all the dangerous objects before because of that and I (or somebody of my family) stay with them all the time, there´s no risk.
A clipped parrot will feel the restriction a lot of times and although you can´t (or want to) see it that´s a really unpleasant feeling...

Education and monitoring could avoid dangers, but it requires an effort that most of owners are not interested in doing. You can say that it is supplied by love and care, but I can say that my lovebirds and many others don´t need to be clipped for getting love and care, those two things are completly independent...

"If done correctly so as to limit flight (and not eliminate it), this is a far better option than confinement or escape"

Yes, but those options are not unique. My lovebirds don´t suffer confinement and that doesn´t mean that they will escape.

"Lets not forget, that while some parrots can be trained (even by a 10 year old) to return to their rightful owner, there are many who simply cannot be trained to do anything at all."

That´s no true, any bird could be trained if the owner wanted to do it. It´s a really simple work, but is a work. I would say that not all owners want to test, all the parrots are capable of learning.

"Say we've taken in a parrot who's behavior is such that it remains in a state of defensiveness and/or aggression. Not exactly a comfortable life, would you not agree? ... So now if we trim a few flights, and this in turn leads to a more comfortable state of emotional wellbeing, would this not be a good thing?"

It would be a comfortable life if you allow the parrot used to their new home before any attempt to approach and then were slowly respecting his rhythm. That´s what I did with my wild lovebirds and they became almost lika a hand-feeding one...
Unfortunately, the patience is not very common. Clipping his wings you would get it faster, but at what price?

"Although i'm unsure as to what type of regimine those in Spain use to help keep their parrots fit and trim, over here we like to provide as much out of cage time as possible, plenty of personal interaction, large cages, a multitude of toys (both natural and manmade), and a safe environment where they can enjoy access to as many devices their little hearts may so desire."

Yes, that´s what we do too, but I was not referring to that.
There are some specific routines to exercise the wings, most of that are aimed at stimulating the beating while you´re playing with him.

Greetings!

[Enko_chan]

There are degrees of clipping and many reasons to clip that have nothing to do with my comfort. All of my birds have 2-3 primary flight feathers clipped when they first arrive here, for safety in transit and while they are getting used to their new environment, and if for any reason, I will travel with them- so much can happen in just a few seconds. They can all still fly short distances- as far as they would need or want to fly indoors- well enough to exercise and get from place to place, and they are less likely to hit a window, wall, or cabinet- which can happen regardless of how careful we are- and hurt themselves, and on the terrible chance that they got out by mistake, they couldn't fly as far. For some people, however, their birds depend on a more thorough clipping for their own safety and well-being. I had a bird that was always very skittish, and in order to let him out of his cage at all, I had to clip him so he couldn't fly. He was rescued, and I was trying to do what is best for him- moral questions about taking birds out of the wild- just don't apply to situations like his- it was a matter of leaving him with a family that neglected him or take him home and give him the best life I could. He would fly erratically whenever spooked, which was often, and hit walls, he would also fly out of reach and hide, and being disabled- I couldn't get him down. He lived a long and healthy life, ultimately dying from a leg infection well past his expected lifespan. Like all parts of bird husbandry, I think the question about whether or not to clip and to what degree depends on an informed decision, and the individual situation. I respect your decision not to clip, you've got your fids best interest at heart and have given the topic research and thought.

We had an unclipped Umbrella Cockatoo when I was little that was trained for flight recall. He got out a door by a terrible mistake. Clipped or not, very few parrots would survive in this climate, with little food available and lots of predators. Peregrine falcons- the fastest animal in the world, as well as other birds of prey such as other species of falcons, hawks, and eagles live in my area- even if the birds aren't clipped they are unlikely to make it in the wild with these predators around! Even if there WERE food here, it is likely they would not know how to find it. To release a bird raised in captivity to the wild would take a lot of careful, well-mediated conditioning, and releasing them to a place that is not their native habitat is not only irresponsible for many reasons, but would almost certainly cause their death. Yes, many birds that are lost are found again, we know that very well in this forum. But many are not. A clipped bird is less likely to get as far away. Our lost Cockatoo was very well trained and loved us very much- he was very dependent on human contact. When he got outside and caught a gust of wind, we imagine he flew as far as it took him, stopped and wondered why we hadn't come to get him. He was friendly with anyone, and if he was found, someone probably took him in- we hope with all our hearts that's what happened- but despite desperate searching, we never saw him again. This was 18 years ago, but it still sticks with me.

Yes, we should always supervise our birds when they are out, unless they are very well trained- and even then I probably woudn't- we should do our best to give them the best lives possible, and allow them plenty of exercise, but I do not think it is fair or appropriate in this forum to say definitively that it is wrong and cruel to clip wings. Everyone in this forum cares very deeply for their fids, and we need to respect all points of view. Ideally, I would have a huge home with padded walls and mosquito-netted windows that could be opened year-round with lots of safe plants that my birds can run free in- but there would be no aviculture if we held such high standards. For the safety of my birds, and for their quality of life, and for no other reason do my birds receive light clips when they first come home. As they grow up, and as the situation merits, I decide whether or not to continue clipping the same amount, clip more feathers, or not clip at all. At this moment, I have two enclosed porches on either side of the house and my birds, excepting the one that just got here, are all trained to stay off the floor and to stay within the two rooms that are bird-safed. I also cover the windows in the rooms where they play so there are no window mishaps. All my birds are allowed to fly from gym to gym to cage to person... within the house.

It is totally reasonable and I think, important to consider philosophical questions concerning whether or not birds are better off in the wild, but I don't think it is helpful when considering whether or not to clip. Its too complex a question to be applicable to concerns in domestic husbandry, and an enormous moral quandry for all of us. Most of the birds were have here in the USA at least, have been bred in captivity for so many generations and bred toward a domestic ideal that it is questionable whether many of them would ever be able to live in the wild at all. Many of these parrots have disappearing natural habitat and with some, very few of their wild brethren still exist. Like a dog or cat, we are dealing with domesticated creatures, even if its to a lesser degree and they still do have the spirit of the jungle in them! These birds aren't wild birds, they weren't born in the wild, they live with us and it is our responsibility to give them the longest, healthiest and happiest lives possible. This is what you and I and most everyone here is trying to do. If you feel that by not clipping you are closer to your ideal- that is great, and you made many good points. I am happy to hear the reasons why you all make particular choices concerning your birds husbandry- but I don't want an ethics lesson.

It may be a semantic fog that is causing confusion here, but I took many of the statements to mean that "clipping is wrong, black and white, period and if you clip your birds, you are cruel." Statements like that cause contention in forums like this. That is one belief, and I respect it, please pay others the same courtesy. I value your input in this forum and though we just "met" I like you and think you have a great flock that you care for well. I don't mean to offend, and if I've taken something the wrong way, I am sorry.

[belenny]

"It may be a semantic fog that is causing confusion here, but I took many of the statements to mean that "clipping is wrong, black and white, period and if you clip your birds, you are cruel." Statements like that cause contention in forums like this."

That´s it, a translator is not the better way to express ideas xD
I was only trying to say what I think, I didn´t want to say that my opinion is the truth Today I think in this way, but I could be wrong and change my mind in the future.

I really think that buying a bird with the idea of clipping him for all his life is cruel, but I´m sure that in most of cases the cause is a human error and not a malicious intent, so I respect the person who makes it because he has his reasons for thinking in that way as I have mine.

I´m very sorry if you´ve felt judged, it wasn´t my intention.

[HaleBoppPeachyluv]

"

HaleBoppPeachyluv, I know how clipping wings is done, but my opinion is the same. Birds fly, if you don´t like it don´t buy a bird...
If a lovie escapes clipped his dead is unavoidable... I know some cases about cats or big birds who killed parrots because of that.

"My tendency is to clip some primary flight feathers when a new/untame love is brought home to help with the taming process".

This is what I said, owner´s comfort... I can´t respect that.
I had a pair of wild lovebirds when I was 10 and I could tame them without clipping... Only with time and patience. If a 10 year old girl could do that, why can´t others do the same? Because it´s easier with an animal who can´t escape when he´s afraid... I am saying that we should see from their point of view because when they´re afraid and we try to cuddle them advantage that may not leave we´re not respecting them. They will be more terrified then, although they realize that we´re not an enemy later...

Belenny, I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what wing-clipping meant, it was meant for people who find this thread and aren't familiar with that term.

Also, you'll notice I said that I don't think people will change their minds. Just because a person thinks a way is the right way doesn't mean others will agree no matter how passionately they state their views. Everyone here is respectful of the difference of opinions. We ask that you don't attack or insult members who have a different opinion.

In my opinion, saying "I can't respect that" is very disrespectful. It implies that you think I don't care for my lovies as much as you do. It is one thing to think it, but it is rather impolite to post it publically. A simple "I disagree" is far less likely upset people.

And as far as ages go, I don't think age is relevent.

When I was 8 I got my first lovebird & he was flighted. He was not tame when we first got him, I tamed him. When I was 9, he escaped out the front door when I was not home. He landed on powerlines across the street and my mother sent my brother to fetch me. He did not come down for my family members, he came down when I called. We clipped his flight feathers after that. He remained tame and friendly and well loved the rest of his life. He had a lot of out-of-cage time and plenty of exercise.

I have never had a clipped lovebird escape from me, only flighted ones, and I am grateful that they came back when called. In fact, it breaks my heart to see a single lovebird occasionally flying around my neighborhood calling to my lovebird, but never getting near enough to catch.

At any rate, probably neither of us will change our opinion, which is fine with me because your lovebirds look healthy and happy and I know mine are, too.

[belenny]

I said it in the same way that I would say it in spanish and I think that could be the problem I can´t it´s like impotence, not like an insult.

Anyway I was referring to the act, not the person. I can´t respect it because I can´t find any reason to buy a bird without the proper conditions at home and convert him in another thing restricting his ability to move.

Do you remember the example on the beggining? I could have a horse in my little garden and do extra exercise outoors with him, but I think that a horse needs a great space to run and I prefer don´t fulfill my wish to have a limited horse.

Look at this, ¿what´s your opinion about this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T2-wMXtRgM

[michael]

I said it in the same way that I would say it in spanish and I think that could be the problem I can´t it´s like impotence, not like an insult.

Anyway I was referring to the act, not the person. I can´t respect it because I can´t find any reason to buy a bird without the proper conditions at home and convert him in another thing restricting his ability to move.

Do you remember the example on the beggining? I could have a horse in my little garden and do extra exercise outoors with him, but I think that a horse needs a great space to run and I prefer don´t fulfill my wish to have a limited horse.

Look at this, ¿what´s your opinion about this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T2-wMXtRgM

In my opinion, for lovebirds especially, free flight training is nothing to fool around with. Even professional trainers like Chris Biro will advise you "Do not try this at home". It is not only unconterminious to each different species, but requires thousands of hours of experience. Something not all of us are entitled to. ... For each video you offer showing the benefits free flight, there are just as many stories of those who have permanently lost their precious companion. Example.... http://www.youtube.com/user/kskiwi ....Likewise, for each story you share pointing out that flighted parrots have a better chance at being recovered, there are a multitude of those who would easily suggest otherwise. For example; http://www.birdhotline.com/viewlost.htm It is also a known fact that PEAC (Parrot Education and Adoption Center) based in San Diego at one time reported that out of 74 parrots rescued in a 6 year time period, the majority were never reunited with their owners. Out of that 74, only two were clipped. While this number may appear quite small, it only reflects birds which were found, not ones rescued, and not those who are yet to be accounted for. That is, if their still alive.

Obviously, we can continue to debate this issue to the extent of whether or not we should even keep companion birds. ... Surely though, if you feel that by not offering the proper conditions at home we should therefore not keep them, then even you yourself are not properly equipped to own one. .... Reason. Fact is, most birds have evolved to fly great distances on a daily basis. To think we can offer a fully flighted parrot anything near what they'd encounter in the wild would be absurd. ... And to further state your birds do not suffer confinement, well, I would say that in itself is a matter of contention. .... As for horses on the other hand, because they not only lack certain appendages, and take up far more space in our living rooms (or small garden), I really don't see them as a good comparison.

None the less, because we have all chosen to keep birds in some way "captive", it is our responsibilty to provide them with the best care possible. And what really makes LBP forums so very important here, is that everyone, regardless of who they are or where their from can enjoy an equal opportunity to share their experience and their views. .... Quite frankly here, debating whether "To fly or not to fly?" is only a tip of the iceburg. ..... Next, is "To breed or not to breed?"..............